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Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. So that is where the saying and belief came from. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. Shot placement is the only thing that matters a perfect shot placement with a .22 gets the job done where a miss with a 50 cal just causes a little blood. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. Of course shot placement is important. I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. Thats why were here right? While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. and I guess $$.. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. Copyright 2023 The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. The officer fired three round from his 9mm Baretta 92F. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. Im in the process to actually buy one. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. I know this is off topic. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. WebCapitola Mansion Apartments, Off Grid Cabin Canada, Seth Smith Actor Age, Parma High School Football Schedule, Roxiticus Country Club Membership Fees, Jquery Time Slot Booking Calendar, 45 Acp Damage Human Body, Maricopa News Shooting, Tws I12 Keeps Powering Off, Long Term Rentals Camber Sands, I am sorry for your incounter. Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! True. Riley, love your artical. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. Possible off hand 200. I sure do love 45acp though. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. More damage with one shot. Copyright 2023 This was an interesting discussion. In winter I concealed carry a 1911. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. The beautiful country in south east Asia. Anyone who has seen Clint Eastwoods Dirty Harry movies is familiar with Sergeant Callahans favorite sidekick, his .44 magnum revolver. I use +P ammo. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. The one he found had the best chance was the .357 magnum. No lab test can tell you how likely a round is to drop an assailant, but they can tell you how destructive a round is upon impact, which is the best metric youre going to get. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. Looking back at the stories we told, and which stuck with us, during an eventful year. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. The victim died immediately. To everyone thats been in a shooting with a .45 Auto, and they say, Thank goodness it was a .45 because I only had to use one or two shots. Its just confirmation bias. Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. Thanks for reading and commenting!! The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. But ideally you need a brush rifle. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. Ask deerhunters. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. Why dont these experts just admit that they prefer Glocks and let it go at that? A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. Now as far as the technology of rounds go, technology has improved for all of the basic calibers including 45 so there is no advantage there for the 9. That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. Then get ready for a gunfight. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. Plus, this decision saves the military a substantial amount of money as Glocks are cheap, and the 9mm ammo is also very affordable and, perhaps more importantly, readily available. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. Youve been practicing with your weapon on a consistent basis. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? That the .45ACP slows down so much that its penetration is less effective than a 9mm? For those not in the military, go for what you want. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. 45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body on jun 11, 2022 on jun 11, 2022 The impact of the injury would depend on where the bullet went besides your stomach. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. The average criminal etc. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. Your shot placement will be perfect. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. Oh yeahMale mental dropped like a 50 pound bag of sand. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. Been hunting 49 years. Let me now take you back to 1987. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. Maximum velocity is achieved only at barrel exit, then slows during flight through the viscous median known as our environment (air). I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies . Cpl. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. Yes, yeas I have. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. For this reason, some dismiss magnum rounds altogether and sing the praises of the S&W .40 round, which supposedly combines the best features of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. Model. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. Maybe if you were trying to make 100+ yard shot thatd make a little difference. It scares the hell out of me to think I might have had to use a 9 mm. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. The National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful special interest groups in America. 1996 responded to a domestic violence call shots fired. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. Against bad guys though, gimme a 45 auto. Just happened to recall the powerful 10 auto cartridge. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. I carry a 9mm myself, and train to rapid fire. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. I have also read that the 124gr NATO round is a +P. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? But you have not reached the mark to replace that recoil spring. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. I doubt a .45 would have allowed that.also know a guy who took 10 shots of 9mm at close range in a robbery and survived and is healthy and surfs, shooter must have had terrible aim. The flesh can tear and cells can burst as the tissue erupts outward and then slams back. This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? Can someone comment on this? It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. Fire Rate: 240 JP-Thank you for your real life documentation. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. People have died from .22 LR in one shot. Guns dont kill people. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. It's the most comprehensive and trusted online destination for law enforcement agencies and police departments worldwide. In 30 years I saw a shit-ton of things. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. All animals died pretty much on location. Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. Im no expert by the way but, I know that said air resistance on the nose of the bullet is NOT the predominate factor in any ballistics array. If you dont have an excellent chance against a large carnivore with it. However, at 15 feet in your living room that is a concern regardless of what you are using unless you have a 22 or a 380. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. Wouldnt waste my money on it. What more and more people are choosing is CAPACITY. Its all about follow up shots. The smaller size of the 9mm also allows for more rounds per magazine, as well as lighter weapons. Because capacity equals TIME. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. Generous readers sustain our work. They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. Really late to the discussion. Officer Needs Help!!! NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. So banter on gentlemen. I have shot pigs, goats, and deer in several countries with rounds from .22 lr and mags, 9mm, .45 ACP and .45 colts and .44 sol and mags in handguns. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. Math is absolute and backs what Ive stated. Okay 9s are cool, hold a lot of rounds, small recoil, cheap to shoot and buy. How about a discussion of American made vs foreign made weapons for our military? WebThe 45 will but them down and bleed them out real quick with a gut shot, the 9mm will have them flopping around and may not stop them from firing back, also from the pools of blood near the bodies the 45 does more damage. You can either hit a target or not that simple. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. For a tommygun, I'd probably go with 1d8 base damage, +1 magical weapon bonus to represent penetration and damage, and the ability to make a cone area attack (save or take damage). Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. It was by far the easiest serviced pistol in the field, go ahead and get the lighter frame lighter weight ceramic /plastic and all that junk its fine as long as youre in a urban environment. For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. A .223 is just 55 grains. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in, Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. I was told by a person in the government that the choice of 9mm verses any other round was decided by the cost and mass availability of the ammo periodFor Military, FBI, CIA, Police, Sheriffs and all governmen t branches Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. Indeed, if 9mm used the same grain of bullet, the ft/lb and velocities are near-identical. at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Sad. Repeat over and over, and keep doing so even after proficiency is achieved. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. The rest of the argument as far as damage goes, should be common sense. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. Scratch expensive 45s. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. Since 1959 we have striven as a family-owned business to build a gun shop that is here to grow with your family. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. But I understand the 9 isnt on level with the 45 and know unless a headshot presents itself I will have to dump my mag 7+1 into whoever makes me engage them for a favorable outcome. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. Do your thing, your responsible for your actions! Project: Aftermath Wiki. the statement that a 9mm can carry more bullets. True. Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns.